Is This OK?

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Is This OK?

Postby Nazrininator on Tue Mar 17, 2015 2:29 pm

So I was thinking about making a stepchart for a song, and I found out someone has already made a stepchart to the song I want to make stepcharts for. It only has the expert chart, and I think it would be great if I can revise the expert chart and even create lower difficulties. Would it be OK if I take the song, graphics, and stepchart, revise and edit all of the stepcharts, and submit it to r21freak, given that I give credit to the original stepartist who made the stepcharts and graphics?
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Re: Is This OK?

Postby /// on Wed Mar 18, 2015 11:59 am

Nazrininator wrote:Would it be OK if I take the song, graphics, and stepchart, revise and edit all of the stepcharts, and submit it to r21freak, given that I give credit to the original stepartist who made the stepcharts and graphics?

No. You can use the same song as someone else but please don't "edit" someone else's stepchart and release it here or many people will be very upset with you.
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Re: Is This OK?

Postby KLOC on Wed Mar 18, 2015 4:58 pm

/// wrote:
Nazrininator wrote:Would it be OK if I take the song, graphics, and stepchart, revise and edit all of the stepcharts, and submit it to r21freak, given that I give credit to the original stepartist who made the stepcharts and graphics?

No. You can use the same song as someone else but please don't "edit" someone else's stepchart and release it here or many people will be very upset with you.


Since we're on the topic, is borrowing another song's cut but to chart your own patterns also a bad thing? Like, by that, I mean even still using the same SM file. Not just the audio file with a new SM file.
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Re: Is This OK?

Postby Horsey on Wed Mar 18, 2015 6:06 pm

I have no problem with either of these situations. 1/3rd of Mute Sims is basically what you're talking about Nazrianator. Just don't expect people to be happy if you change 30 arrows and consider the chart your own (unless those 30 arrows are legitimately game-changing).

The reason all the veterans have a problem with editing eachothers's charts is that they don't want the site to turn into r21edits. Hell, there are plenty of charts that when I play them I wish they would be fixed for one reason or another... I say once it becomes a problem we worry about it. I'm pretty sure though that it wouldn't be a problem as long as there is an edit forum for these types of improvements. I've asked for an improvements forum for not just steps, but for QOL updates to legacy files that deserve it, and the mods don't give a flying groove what I suggest.
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Re: Is This OK?

Postby SM MaxX on Wed Mar 18, 2015 8:22 pm

The reason all the veterans have a problem with editing eachothers's charts is that they don't want the site to turn into r21edits.


or you know, it's this thing called plagiarism and it's bad and people don't like people taking their work and making it off as their on.

97kevinhuanle wrote:Since we're on the topic, is borrowing another song's cut but to chart your own patterns also a bad thing? Like, by that, I mean even still using the same SM file. Not just the audio file with a new SM file.


A good chunk of Amperage was literally just this and no one's bitched at me for it.
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Re: Is This OK?

Postby Horsey on Wed Mar 18, 2015 10:46 pm

You plagiarism nazis need to calm yourselves. Personally speaking, there is a multitude of material out there that needs updates and fixes to double steps, and bad patterning. Hell, the whole edit scheme was intended for just this purpose...The problem would arise when people insist that the work is entirely theirs and tests positive for copy paste. You're just looking to argue at some person that doesn't want to change certain portions, but disagrees with others. Look at Matt's charts, he doesn't use gimmicks. A person who likes gimmicks would add them and tailor the chart to that. I have no problem with him taking author credit for the gimmicks, and him giving author credit to the rest of the chart.
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Re: Is This OK?

Postby Gpop on Wed Mar 18, 2015 11:23 pm

Horsey wrote:You plagiarism nazis need to calm yourselves. Personally speaking, there is a multitude of material out there that needs updates and fixes to double steps, and bad patterning. Hell, the whole edit scheme was intended for just this purpose...The problem would arise when people insist that the work is entirely theirs and tests positive for copy paste. You're just looking to argue at some person that doesn't want to change certain portions, but disagrees with others. Look at Matt's charts, he doesn't use gimmicks. A person who likes gimmicks would add them and tailor the chart to that. I have no problem with him taking author credit for the gimmicks, and him giving author credit to the rest of the chart.

There's two ways to look at it, and I'll explain why both are something a majority of stepartists wouldn't agree with.

1) Taking a base chart from someone else and adding things to it to claim it as your own is entirely wrong, and I'm sure almost everyone will agree here. It is self-explanatory as to why this is wrong. Even if you were to take a chart, change a few things that makes it "dramatically different" and claim it as your own, is still wrong because it's not entirely your work.

2) Fixing up a chart and still giving credit to the original artist is something most stepartists would be very uncomfortable with. Mostly because those edits would more often than not take away from the original author's intent in the chart or accidentally change it dramatically enough while others will think this is the original author's intent when in reality it isn't. Instead, it's best for these authors to fix it themselves if they agree with the criticisms so they can work around it while still being entirely their work.

tl;dr don't fix up a chart without the author's permission so you don't accidentally change the chart dramatically enough and claiming it was his work when he didn't intend it at all.
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Re: Is This OK?

Postby /// on Thu Mar 19, 2015 12:04 am

Horsey wrote:I have no problem with either of these situations.

Of course you don't, because you're an arrogant prick with terrible views on everything. But I digress.
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Re: Is This OK?

Postby Loak on Thu Mar 19, 2015 2:06 am

Gpop wrote:don't fix up a chart without the author's permission

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Re: Is This OK?

Postby Horsey on Thu Mar 19, 2015 3:28 am

Gpop wrote:change a few things that makes it "dramatically different" and claim it as your own


I never said that this was a good idea, but as long as the source is cited, I see absolutely no problem with this. The idea is stealing ideas, and you're not stealing ideas if you cite the source.

Gpop wrote:Fixing up a chart and still giving credit to the original artist is something most stepartists would be very uncomfortable with


Tell that to every stepartist that has ever done a restep of a legacy chart, or of a competition chart. If fixing legitimate problems of a chart (such as sync, unintentional mis-quantizations, or double steps) is a problem to you, then you are the type that cannot take help or good will from another person, and I think your mental issues lie beyond the realm of stepcharting.
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Re: Is This OK?

Postby Gpop on Thu Mar 19, 2015 9:00 am

Horsey wrote:
Gpop wrote:Fixing up a chart and still giving credit to the original artist is something most stepartists would be very uncomfortable with


Tell that to every stepartist that has ever done a restep of a legacy chart, or of a competition chart. If fixing legitimate problems of a chart (such as sync, unintentional mis-quantizations, or double steps) is a problem to you, then you are the type that cannot take help or good will from another person, and I think your mental issues lie beyond the realm of stepcharting.


If you don't like the chart, make your own. Simple as that. Otherwise, as I said before:
Gpop wrote:don't fix up a chart (and release it publicly) without the author's permission

(added the bracketed part just to be clear)
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Re: Is This OK?

Postby @@- on Thu Mar 19, 2015 10:32 am

Horsey wrote:
Gpop wrote:Fixing up a chart and still giving credit to the original artist is something most stepartists would be very uncomfortable with


Tell that to every stepartist that has ever done a restep of a legacy chart, or of a competition chart. If fixing legitimate problems of a chart (such as sync, unintentional mis-quantizations, or double steps) is a problem to you, then you are the type that cannot take help or good will from another person, and I think your mental issues lie beyond the realm of stepcharting.


First off, sync, unintentional mis-quantizations are double steps are completely different realms. Sync issues I think most step artists would say are objectively wrong and fixing these would be fine. With mis-quantizations, I think that many step artists would agree that these are also objectively wrong and can be fixed, but there is more gray area. When you go into doublesteps, which are sometimes made intentionally, you will find a lot of people don't consider them wrong.

The reason why your mentality is wrong is that in any of these cases, it should be the person who stepped the charts who release these fixes unless they specifically give permission to someone else to release them. Sometimes it is because if it a minor change, the owner of the original file would like to keep downloads at a consistent address, or they don't agree with some of the changes to the charts/pack themselves (mute and my disagreement with the Oh Henry resync for example). Either way, just fixing someone's chart and releasing it without asking them first is unequivocally releasing someone else's content under your name. If you have fixes, send it to the creator and see if they agree.

Back to the original post:

So I was thinking about making a stepchart for a song, and I found out someone has already made a stepchart to the song I want to make stepcharts for. It only has the expert chart, and I think it would be great if I can revise the expert chart and even create lower difficulties. Would it be OK if I take the song, graphics, and stepchart, revise and edit all of the stepcharts, and submit it to r21freak, given that I give credit to the original stepartist who made the stepcharts and graphics?


Resteps of a song are ok, even using the same cut and sync for a song is ok (but you should credit the original person to cut/sync the song) but the main point to drive home is that the restep should be 100% original. If it so happens that a part of the song you stepped has a similar rhythm or patterns to the original chart, as long as you solely came up with this idea on your own, I don't see an issue with this. Don't "revise" someone's chart to your own liking, delete all the steps and start from scratch and no one will bat an eye. Taking someone graphics I would say is not ok, as this would cause confusion between your chart and the original chart.
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Re: Is This OK?

Postby T-Dog! on Thu Mar 19, 2015 1:28 pm

When in doubt, you should do your own work from scratch, unless you ask for help on certain things, like graphics/sync/etc., and then you should definitely credit them. If you make only a few changes in steps, but everything else stays consistant, like the graphics/sync/etc., then you should definitely NOT release them to anyone, or even put them on a dedicab, and just keep them for yourself to play with in stepmania/r21 off your own usb.
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Re: Is This OK?

Postby Loodee on Thu Mar 19, 2015 1:32 pm

I'll have to agree on restepping without permission only being cool if the entire thing is a restep, meaning only borrowing a skeleton + audio file at most. If you just change some stuff in someone else's chart and release it, there are only so many things that can happen:

A. You give credit to the original artist, but whatever you released is bad and since you only partly restepped the file, a bad file will now be somewhat connected to that artist.

B. You give credit to the original artist and the release is good. Since you gave credit, it's probably not too bad, but I think most step artists would be a bit annoyed that you didn't ask them for permission (unless they've gone missing for like 5 years or something and you can't get in touch with them).

Basically, if A happens, it's simply bad. If B happens, it can still be bad since you might piss people off since it's possible that they for whatever reason do not want their file (partly) restepped.

Asking for permission seems like the way to go V:

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Re: Is This OK?

Postby Horsey on Thu Mar 19, 2015 2:23 pm

@@- wrote:When you go into doublesteps, which are sometimes made intentionally, you will find a lot of people don't consider them wrong.


The difference between intentional and unintentional is really easy to pick out. Look at HPF!'s Story of Us, there's the random double step around 2/3rds the way in. However, I can understand double steps like in Pendulum's Under The Waves, because they are objectively obviously going to the music and are consistent in structure.
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